At last, I return, having no idea it would have taken so
long for my third reply! Ogre, I will
attempt to answer the direct questions that you so kindly reiterated in your
last post (Dialoguing part 3) and hopefully as Troll peers over your shoulder muttering comments in
your ear, the answers will define better for you the position from which I
speak. You express surprise that we
agree on the problem with the church today but it’s what I saw from the
beginning as a commonality despite our differing perspectives. We definitely
see that there is a problem with the church but just as an illness affects
multiple areas of the body so too does the disease the church carries with it
today. My thought is that it will require a team approach, not any one answer
but a collection of individual pieces put together as the treatment that
improves the condition of the diseased. My treatment may vary from yours but
sharing our perspectives gives us an idea of the bigger picture.
With that in mind, let’s address your question regarding
ongoing revelation. You ask “If your experience differs from mine, how do we
know whose revelation is correct?” My response: if you and I have a
conversation with the same person does one conversation negate or overrule the
other? No, of course it doesn’t. We can both have ‘correct’ conversations in an
authentic manner but yet our conversations would be quite different. The same is true with God. Your experience with God or revelation from
God is between you and God. My experience will look different than yours but it
doesn’t make my revelation wrong, it just makes it different. Now, this may be
a rather simplistic answer but bear with me. In this case, I use experience and
revelation interchangeably because revelation from God is an experience. God can reveal information to you that is
deeply personal and ministers to you in an enlightening or encouraging way that
would mean absolutely nothing to me. On
the other hand, should you choose to share that revelation in an appropriate
circumstance it could be quite beneficial to me in understanding who God is and
how He works. For instance, I mentor
several young adults and frequently use examples of my own experience with God
that helps them understand how God is working in their lives. Revelation should
be a regular part of an interactive relationship with Christ just like
conversation reveals information about the person we are conversing with. 1John
5:10, “He who believes in the Son of God
has the witness in himself”; this is what sharing our testimony is all
about it bears witness to who Christ is.
When I say that people don’t ‘know Him” it’s because they
know of Him, reading His word or listening to Pastor preach about Him but they
don’t interact with God on a regular basis. Psalm 46:10 says “Be still and know that I am God.” We have to be still and listen
for His voice. We have to shut out the
noise of the world, pray for discernment and learn to recognize His voice the
same way we learn to recognize the voice of a spouse or child. This is the way we grow in understanding and
knowledge of Him. Jesus corrects the Sadducee’s in Matthew 22 because they ‘don’t know the Scriptures nor the power of
God.’ It requires both the power of God that comes through the Holy Spirit
and knowledge of the Scriptures and the authority contained within. Peter
experienced it in Matthew 16:17.
You say that revelation ‘smacks of popery’ but you compare
two different things. The popes set themselves up to be the sole recipient and
distributor of heavenly communication because they lusted for power. Just
because they had it wrong doesn’t mean we should disregard continual revelation.
Our revelation should come directly
through the Holy Spirit, it should be personal, it should be weighed and it
should line up with the word of God. The
Holy Spirit will not contradict Himself. This revelation is comparable to the
insight we receive from people we are in relationship with – little clues and
knowledge that helps us to understand and know them better. You know much more about your spouse now than
you did when you were first married; that knowledge came about via revelation
into her character and personality that happened over the course of years not
just because you met her once or twice.
The same is true with God. Our first encounter with Him should give us a
desire to encounter Him more and more. He reveals His character and His personality
as we seek Him so we increase in our understanding of Him. Not that we will
ever have complete understanding but it will lead to transformation of our
personality and character into something that resembles Christ as He renews our
mind to think a different way. Are there
misunderstandings? Of course there are; just as there are misunderstandings
between people. Thankfully, God loves us enough to offer His grace and patience
freely so that we continue to press on to knowing Him more. There has to be a
balance of both revelation and knowledge – God reveals His holiness to our sin
sick soul but yet extends the knowledge of grace in the righteousness of Christ
so we personally may approach His throne.
If people in the church actually knew God then the fruit of
our relationship would be expressed by Christ like characteristics that would
set us apart from the world. There would be unity in humility. For instance, the divorce rate among
Christians would be much lower, we would see an outpouring of resources to help
those in need there would be no need for a government run welfare system
because the church would be doing what it should have been doing all along. The
abortion rate would decrease as would pornography, infidelity and sexual
promiscuity because people would have an understanding of why God put rules of
holiness in place for us. We can have knowledge of holiness but there is no way
we can achieve it in our life without the power of the Holy Spirit. We would see more healings, more deliverance
and more people walking in freedom – this would then give us the dominion in
our culture that Wagner was referring to. It is my testimony and the testimony
of people like me that exemplify how our relationship with Jesus changed our
lives which in turn edifies the body.
Paul testified to it – his life was changed dramatically before
the Word was even written. He had a great understanding of the Old Testament
scriptures but nothing in his life changed until he had an encounter with the
great I AM. His “experience” and that of
others like him that you are so ready to disregard converted him from killer of
those who follow Christ to one who is willing to die for Christ. Was Paul
perfect? No and neither are any of us – so we will make mistakes and we will
mess things up but again, we are dependent upon His grace.
This conversion experience, this same type of dramatic life
change is still available today because Jesus is still available today. He is
the same now as He was then. The process may not happen overnight but is an
ongoing process that comes as a result of us being in relationship with
God. The more we get to know God the
more we want to please Him and live the way He designed for us to live because
of the LOVE. Your children want to please you because they love you, not
because you made up a bunch of rules for them to follow or because they’ve read
about all the wonderful things you have done.
It’s because they know YOU however troll-ish or ogre-ish you are they
still love you. God loves us the same
way, unconditionally as a parent loves a child, even when they mess up. We love Him because He first loved us. He sent Christ because He so loved the
world. It’s about love, Ogre, love. He
wants relationship with us because He loves us.
I could fill pages with hundreds of examples where God used
revelation through me (that lines up with the authority of Scripture) to
encourage the body of Christ, including people you know and love. Considering revelation
irrelevant is like saying Russia doesn’t exist because you’ve never been there.
Revelation in the body of Christ is alive and well. A man once said, if you
want to know the truth, ask Jesus, He is the truth.
So Ogre, I conclude my effort with this final thought. I
hope I have brought clarity to my position without being overly redundant but I
believe it is important for us to remember that all must be tempered with grace
and compassion, not ridiculed with pride or judgment. It is the love of Christ
and the love for others that should move us to compassion and sacrifice
extending mercy to help those in need.
Jesus wept over the condition of Jerusalem as should we; crying out for
God to help us instead of thinking that we have all the answers. Whether you
like them apples or think that I’m barking like a prairie dog it doesn’t really
matter. Our modalities may differ but
our goal is the same: to make the world a better place through Christ.
I am willing to continue conversing across the gulf that
separates us, holding tight to the scarlet thread that binds us together so
fire off your exegesis of Isaiah 59 and we will continue this discourse. You too Troll, if you’re partial to coming
out from under the bridge.
~~~ Susan, a Gadite
PS – I did not address the linguistics issue because your
knowledge of languages, like your knowledge of church history far surpasses
mine. I barely speak English well and
the only other language I speak is glossolalia (hahaha and I have no idea
whether I am grammatically correct or not).
So, I defer to the writings of Spears, et. al. with the caveat that I
believe this is recently acquired knowledge and not something that has made it
into the mainstream.
